Episode 24

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Published on:

9th Feb 2025

Fermentation and Food Innovation with Ali Lawrence of Spirit & Abundance

Join Chefs Ryan Jennings and Ali Lawrence for a plant-powered crossover, as they dive into the art of fermentation, the rise of vegan cuisine, and the challenges and rewards of entrepreneurship. Ali shares her journey from the Culinary Institute of America to founding Spirit & Abundance, where she crafts small-batch, cultured plant-based cheeses that are redefining dairy-free dining in Rochester, NY. The two culinary experts connect over their shared passion for food innovation, and even tease another potential collaboration on the horizon.

Mentioned in this episode:

Food About Town

Food About Town hosted by Chris Lindstrom, focusing on restaurants, food and drink of all kinds, and whatever topics I want to cover! https://foodabouttown.captivate.fm/

Pauly Guglielmo Show

Pauly Guglielmo is a former radio guy turned food business entrepreneur. While running a manufacturing facility is his day job, he likes to dust off his broadcasting skills once a week on this podcast and talk to entrepreneurs and other influencers.

Joe Bean Roasters

Joe Bean Coffee - Coffee that lifts everyone. Use promo code Lunchador for 15% off your order! https://shop.joebeanroasters.com

Transcript
Ryan:

All right.

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Well, welcome everybody, uh, to this

week's episode of shelling peas.

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I'm chef Ryan Jennings of

sweet pea plant based kitchen.

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And today I have the distinct pleasure of

speaking to somebody for the first time.

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Uh, today's guest is Allie Lawrence.

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She's the owner and operator

of Spirit and Abundance.

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Allie, thank you so much for doing this.

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Ali: Aw, thanks so much for having me.

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Ryan: So I, you know, I was thinking

about things, you know, this is, it's one

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of like the, the best parts about doing

this, like I needed another thing to do.

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Like I needed a hole in the

head when I started this.

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Um, but it's such an opportunity to, to

meet new people, to meet other people.

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Uh, who are entrepreneurs who

are, you know, in businesses

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that are kind of adjacent to mine

and Sweet Pea and other things.

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And the sort of the conceit of

it was I worked in restaurants

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for, for most of my career.

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And I can remember thinking, when

you look outside of the dining

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room, you know, maybe there's a

couple of people in the hospitality

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industry that are like, they're on

their night off or whatever it is.

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But most other people are in all

these other different businesses and

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they're enjoying a nice night with

their partner or their friends or

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whatever it is, but everybody's got

their different, like, story to tell.

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Like, people are just so interesting, you

know, and so, yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm curious.

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We can go back a bit, but.

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You know, tell me about

spirit and abundance.

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Tell me about how it got

started, how it's going.

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Ali: Yeah.

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So actually in, I started

my business in:

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Um, people are kind of shocked to, to

learn how old my business is, but we're

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going on, I don't even know how many years

at this point, it feels like a decade,

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but it's not, um, and I started my, uh,

business teaching plant based cooking

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and lifestyle classes, uh, predominantly

with the Rochester greenery and, um.

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During the pandemic, um, which we

were, we were joking, uh, prior to

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turning our mics on how quickly the

pandemic is going to come up and

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Ryan: yeah.

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Ali: Um, I was like, oh, it's

going to come up real quick.

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Uh, during the pandemic, I had

a hard time, uh, transitioning

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into the online space.

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Um, I didn't hadn't really

built up a following yet.

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Um, and, uh, the online cooking

class space is very weird and

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awkward if you don't have the

several cameras and crazy technology.

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So I started making plant based cheese.

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I launched that in November of

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And, um, without Yeah.

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Best year ever.

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Yeah.

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Right.

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. Um, without like really a lot of

advertising or a huge following,

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I had like 20 some odd orders.

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Mm-hmm . Just for that first

initial, uh, order and it just

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kind of took on a life of its own.

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And now I have a huge production

space with a bunch of equipment.

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I had no intentions of

purchasing . It started my business.

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Ryan: Yeah.

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It's amazing how each one of you

keep going through a process and

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you're like, ah, man, this is hard.

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And you're like looking at your computer,

you're like, Oh, here's the thing.

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That's going to make it easier.

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It's how much, then you got to do like

the back of the napkin math, like,

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well, I'll have this much more time.

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And yeah.

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So yeah.

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I mean, talk a little bit about

like those, those steps, because

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it happens, I think, you know,

almost all the time as, as a younger

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entrepreneur, where you have an idea,

there's a conceit of it, and then.

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You start getting into the kind of the

weeds of it, and then you got to keep

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making, you know, more steps to get there.

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So you're, you're doing

the cooking classes.

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The pandemic happens.

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Everybody has to pivot

some way, shape or form.

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And then you're like.

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All right.

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Plant based cheese.

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I can do that.

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Was it really like that

kind of linear thing?

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Was it something that you

had in the back of your mind?

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Ali: No, I, I basically, and,

and I don't know how much logical

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business sense this makes.

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I mean, it makes no logical business

sense, but, um, I run my business

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fairly intuitively in terms of pivoting.

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Um, I do apply logic after the fact, but

if I feel like my business, I want to kind

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of change directions or, or add something.

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I, it kind of starts just

in the back of my head.

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Um, it was not as linear as that.

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Um, it was mostly like I had started

experimenting, making this stuff at home.

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Um, I started fermenting,

uh, food in:

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I worked for small world foods, um,

and learned how to ferment with them.

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And, uh, this idea of creating

cultured plant based cheeses, uh,

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that tasted really, really good.

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Unlike, you know, there's a lot of

really, really great plant based cheeses

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on the market that if you want things

to melt, if you want things to look

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like cheese, you've got all those boxes

checked, but things, you know, cheese

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that tastes really, really delicious,

retains those live and active cultures.

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And, um, Is is perfect for just

eating on its own or putting on a

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cheese board is not something that

there's a lot of in Western New York.

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Um, and certainly since I started,

it's something that industry

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that has definitely grown.

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Um, but that was kind of what I started

experimenting with and playing with.

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And predominantly it was

because I love the puzzle of it.

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I love the science behind it.

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I joked to all my engineering friends

that I should have a honorary STEM degree

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with the biochemistry I know and all the

things I know about bacteria fermentation.

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Um, and so, yeah, I was experimenting

with it at home and, and, um, Prior to

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the pandemic, everyone was like, ah, you

should sell this, you should sell this.

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And I was like, well, not really

making a lot of money doing

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the thing that I started doing.

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So may as well switch it

up, do something different.

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Ryan: Yeah.

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So yeah, what would, do you have a

bit of a STEM background or was it?

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Are you from around here?

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Ali: I am, yeah.

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I grew up on Honeyway Falls.

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Um, I, I went to culinary

school right out of high school.

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So I have, um, an associates from

the CIA and baking and pastry.

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Ryan: Oh, wow.

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You went to the big one.

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Ali: I went to the big one.

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Yeah.

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And then, um, I transferred

to Cornell university.

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So I have, uh, my bachelor's

in hotel administration with a

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minor in beverage management.

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Ryan: Oh, so you were gonna, you're

gonna do the whole hospitality thing.

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Ali: I was actually, the goal

was to become like, get into the

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beverage industry, like, uh, to

become like a wine sommelier or,

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um, with like a focus on tea.

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I really.

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I love wine, but I love tea more.

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And, um, so I had the intention

of going into the tea industry.

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It just didn't work out that way.

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Ryan: Yeah.

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So you get, you get out of Cornell

and, um, your, did you get a

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job in a hospitality or hotels?

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Ali: Right when I got out of Cornell, my

life kind of got shook up a little bit.

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I, um, had a lot of mental health issues

in college and, um, and this is kind of

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the, the genesis of, of my business is.

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Um, I took a Zen Buddhism course

my last semester of college, uh,

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just for something different.

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And it, and, uh, it was a really

beautiful, it sounded like a really

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beautiful course and it culminated

in a two week trip to Japan.

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Um, the Zen professor knew.

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A former student of hers was a Zen priest.

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So he got us into all these crazy Zen

monasteries that like, we were the

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first foreigners to visit one of the Zen

monasteries an hour outside of Hiroshima.

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And, um, we were meditating with

working with, and just like learning

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from these Zen monks and priests.

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And, uh, the whole time I was, uh,

pretty much plant based, I had already

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gone to, I decided to be pescatarian

when I was there because it was

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Japan and there's going to be fish.

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But, um.

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Ryan: Yeah.

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It's a, it's a good place to, uh,

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Ali: if

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Ryan: you're going to do it anywhere.

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Ali: Right.

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Um, and then coming back from

that, I kind of had this.

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Like spiritual awakening almost

and like just really second

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guessing a lot of what I was doing.

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And so, um, that's when I, uh, got

into the small world because I was

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like, oh man, you know, I think I just

want to figure things out for a bit.

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So, um, I did work in the hospitality

industry a little bit and I've

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like worked in restaurants and food

service since high school, but.

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Um, yeah, I never really

worked in those big hotels or

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corporate or anything like that.

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Ryan: Yeah.

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Well, that business I can speak

from my own experience is, uh, not

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always great for your mental health.

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That was kind of

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Ali: why I was like, Oh, I'm coming out

of this feeling a little bit better.

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And, uh, I really don't want to dive

into something that's going to undo all

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of the work that I just put into to.

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Ryan: Yeah.

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Ali: Yeah.

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So

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Ryan: tell me about Japan.

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Like, I, I'm so.

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I had a very close friend who lived

there for five years, uh, who lived

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in Okinawa, and uh, just all the

amazing stories, but it just, it seems

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like a whole nother planet to me.

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Ali: So I actually was in a

subculture of a subculture.

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Um, so there's Buddhist

monasteries and there's Buddhism,

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but then there's Zen Buddhism.

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And so there's actually like

a running joke in Japan.

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It's like, you're, you're, uh,

you're born atheist, you're married

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Shinto and you die Buddhist.

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Um, because, uh, Shinto weddings

are very like, they're colorful.

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They're loud.

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They're very vibrant.

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They're very celebratory.

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Zen Buddhism is seen as like

very stern and very intense.

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And, it is, it's, it's.

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Um, you know, it's the

practice of non attachment.

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So these monks literally

have like nothing.

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They have their, their futon

that they sleep on and, um, every

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morning they get up at three

or four o'clock in the morning.

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Um, they meditate and they don't go to

bed usually until 10 or 11 at night.

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Um, there are actually ho holiday,

I'll use holiday in quotes.

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There are actually holidays and

celebrations where they sit in meditation

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in the zendo for two weeks at a time.

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Um, like people bring them food.

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Yeah.

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Ryan: Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Ali: Um.

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We as kind of guests did not have to

do any of that, but I was meditating

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for probably like 4 to 6 hours a

day, depending on where we were.

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Um, and, uh, the group I was with, um,

was just students and like, that I didn't

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know very well going into it, but it's

very interesting sharing space in that.

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Um, like, even though we were meditating

in silence for four to six hours

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a day, you really got to know the

people you were meditating with and,

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and, um, the, yeah, it's going to

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Ryan: be, um, like a connection,

like an energy, just being

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there with them in this.

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Maybe vulnerable is the wrong word.

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No, I

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Ali: think it's the right word.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Ryan: You're just so open to the

world in your mind and you're

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sitting there with these people.

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It's gotta be something.

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Ali: Yeah.

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Yeah.

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I mean, we were, by the end of it,

we were basically anticipating each

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other's needs without really having

to speak at all and, uh, it was there.

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I, I actually started learning

more about, uh, Japanese cooking.

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Um, our, uh, mentor, the Zen priest that,

that kind of helped organize the trip.

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Um, he.

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He has a temple.

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Every Zen priest has a temple.

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It's a very small one.

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Um, his mother who was in her

nineties at the time, who was like

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the temple wife in charge of it.

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And she taught us how to

do a few like Japanese.

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Dishes and everything.

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And, um, I have her cookbook.

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It's in all Japanese.

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I can't read it.

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Ryan: It

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Ali: sounded like a good idea at the time

when I bought it, but, um, uh, yeah, no,

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she, uh, well in her nineties, but she

knew what she was doing and she actually,

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um, taught me a little bit about.

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Japanese fermentation without saying

a word of English, by the way.

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So like, um, she was making umaboshi,

which are these Japanese sour plums.

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Um, and, uh, we made like

a lightly fermented, like

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turnip dish and everything.

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And, um, really gave me.

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A lot of perspective into a Japanese

fermentation and Japanese Zen cuisine,

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which is entirely plant based.

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Um, there's no animal

products in that whatsoever.

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Yeah.

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Ryan: Oh, that's amazing.

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How long were you there?

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Ali: I was only there for two weeks.

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Yeah.

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Ryan: And it just changed everything.

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Ali: It literally radically shifted how

I see the world, how I see myself and

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really just became So planted the seed

really for, um, I went, I went vegan.

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Um, my business is plant based,

but my, myself identify as vegan.

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I went vegan probably.

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Um, I think as soon as I got back, I

decided to just go vegan because I felt

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so good during those two weeks that

I was like, oh, this is part of the.

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Part of the puzzle.

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Ryan: Exactly.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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No, I mean, we hear this like so

much from the folks that, that

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we work with and it's, it's not a

dissimilar kind of timeline, right?

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Like a lot of.

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You know, like my partner in Sweet Pea

Mike, he was somebody who was in his

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late 30s, um, had two young kids, you

know, considered himself a foodie, you

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know, love food, but didn't like the

way he felt, was having all sorts of

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health problems, somebody who struggled

with his weight his whole life, yo yo

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dieting, um, he had a paternal grandfather

that passed away at 49 from a heart

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attack and, uh, he felt like he was

kind of on that path and he was scared.

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You know, and, um, you know, this families

and kind of medically adjacent fields and

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philanthropy and those sorts of things.

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And he, um, you know, never even

heard of, like, a plant based

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diet or, like, lifestyle medicine

or any of these kinds of things.

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And he had a friend who was kind of

in a similar spot who was actually

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going to have to have heart surgery.

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Uh, and the doctor told this friend,

if you switch to a plant based

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diet, the blockage will reduce and

you won't have to have the surgery.

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And Mike thought it was just like nuts.

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He's like, yeah, kids like go get

surgery and get this taken care of.

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Thankfully, the guy didn't listen to him.

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And within six months, the blockage

is reduced to the point where,

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which he didn't need surgery.

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And within a year, um, his cardiologist

said he was heart attack proof.

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Ali: Yeah,

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Ryan: you know, and it just

like got Mike's attention and

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he just like couldn't let it go.

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So he took like the Cornell program

at the Campbell's and, um, read

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voraciously about it, did all the things

and then decided to do it himself.

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And, um, you know, he said like on the

7th or 8th day I do it and he woke up

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and he just like felt like a new person.

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Like all the inflammation was gone.

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He was like happier.

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He'd slept better.

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And, you know, the, the combination

of the knowledge he gained doing the

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research, plus the way his body felt like

he just couldn't, couldn't let it go.

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And, um, yeah, I mean, that's

kind of where Sweet Pea was

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born or the conceit of it.

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Anyway, he's a serial entrepreneur

and we worked together.

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He had a restaurant.

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Um, back in 2008, the, uh,

the second worst time to open

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a fine dining restaurant.

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That

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Ali: doesn't sound like a great

time to open a restaurant.

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Ryan: Yeah, it didn't, it didn't make it.

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But, um, so yeah, we had a professional

relationship, uh, already in a friendship.

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You know, we're like, there's nowhere

for people to, to get this, you

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know, like there's a, there's a gap

in the market and what's available.

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So that was kind of the conceit of

it, but that, that short period of

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time, I guess the point I was trying

to make can, when you really leave

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yourself open to something new can,

can really just change everything.

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And it sounds like that happened to you.

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Ali: Yeah, I think that's, that's, you

know, circling back to how I'm, I kind

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of run my business a little bit more on

instinct is, is always trying to leave

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myself open to possibilities and change.

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And, um, my 2023 definitely allowed

for that to happen a little bit, a

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little bit more, just being a little

bit more open, um, I was in the

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Hungerford building actually prior

to the space that we're in now.

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Ryan: Yeah.

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Ali: And, um, I was evicted

through no fault of my own.

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Sure.

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I was subleasing and, uh, the issues

with the person I was subleasing

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within the building came to a head.

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Ryan: Yeah.

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Ali: Uh, two weeks to

leave my production space.

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I had.

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No lease, no place to store anything.

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Um, I had, uh, and

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Ryan: orders to fill, right?

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You're in business.

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I'm

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Ali: in business.

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I was actively in business.

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Um, I had, uh, my father passed away.

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Unfortunately, um, that,

that, uh, March as well.

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Um, and, uh, I was dealing with

all of his affairs at the time.

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Um, and it was just, it was

just this incredible moment of.

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Having to trust, uh, my instincts

and trust that like whatever

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decisions I was making in this very

short two week period of time was

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going to be the right decision.

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Ryan: Yeah.

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Ali: Um, and, uh, so far it's worked out.

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Ryan: Yeah.

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And so you're in that two

weeks, you're able to get here?

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Ali: Yeah, I was already negotiating

the lease for this space.

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Um, I was still looking around, um,

but I had started negotiating and, and

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literally the day after, like, like, no,

like, I think literally two minutes after

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I got out of court, uh, the eviction

court date, I, I emailed my landlord

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and was like, I need a lease today.

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Ryan: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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And he's like, I'll

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Ali: have it to you in two hours and,

uh, uh, found a lawyer to read it.

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Um, The next week.

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And yeah, he let me store some

of my larger equipment here.

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Um, a couple of their business owners

let me stash some stuff with them.

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Um, so I could still like have access

to my product so I could sell whatever

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I was making, whatever I had made.

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Um, I made as much cheese as I possibly

could the week, you know, the first week.

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Um, the second week was just

all about getting everything

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wherever it needed to go.

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Ryan: Oh my God.

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That that's gotta be like top five,

like nightmares for any business owner.

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Like.

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Yeah, I'm like downturn in business,

something breaks down, somebody can't

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come in, like all this kind of stuff

happens all the time, but they're like, so

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yeah, you gotta be out of here like now.

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Ali: Yeah, yeah.

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Um, and you have no

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Ryan: recourse.

374

:

Ali: Yeah, absolutely.

375

:

Um, yeah, uh, no recourse,

no real savings or anything.

376

:

Yeah, yeah, yeah,

377

:

Ryan: yeah.

378

:

Ali: It was, uh.

379

:

It was a fun time.

380

:

Um, my, uh, you know, my customers and,

and the vegan community and the Rochester

381

:

community itself really, really helped me.

382

:

Um, I didn't reach my GoFundMe goal, but

the, you know, I did, uh, start a GoFundMe

383

:

and that definitely helped bridge the gap

with some immediate expenses that I had.

384

:

And, and that was really lovely.

385

:

And the Rochester business community and

the community in general, um, Is, uh,

386

:

smaller than people like to think and,

um, so supportive and so collaborative

387

:

that there is no way I would have gotten

through:

388

:

Ryan: Yeah, no, it is a small town.

389

:

I mean, you're telling me about, you

know, leaving the Hungerford building

390

:

and, uh, our guest last week was Leah

Stacy from City Magazine and she was

391

:

telling me about how they just did a

whole deep dive on, on all of that.

392

:

Um, so yeah, I mean,

everybody knows everybody.

393

:

Yeah.

394

:

I can't believe that we

haven't met each other before.

395

:

Ali: Right, I think we have.

396

:

I mean, we've definitely

been at the same events.

397

:

Ryan: Could be, yeah.

398

:

I, um, I'm very grateful to have,

you know, a team around me now.

399

:

So I, I tend not to be at a lot of

the events for Sweet Pea just because.

400

:

Yeah, there's, there's a lot to do.

401

:

I can't be in all the places.

402

:

All

403

:

Ali: that's the dream.

404

:

Honestly, I would love to have

someone helping me out this summer,

405

:

but we'll see, we'll see how it goes.

406

:

Ryan: Yeah, no, I mean,

I can certainly relate.

407

:

I mean, when we, when we first started

sweet pea, um, you know, there are a

408

:

bunch of fits and starts, Mike could

have been involved in another business

409

:

that was, was doing the same thing.

410

:

And that relationship kind of deteriorated

and the business was going to end and.

411

:

That's kind of like where, where I, I

came in there and, uh, you know, we were

412

:

initially going to build out a space.

413

:

Uh, then we had an opportunity to, uh,

partner with the headwater food hub and

414

:

take over a little part of their space.

415

:

There's a problem with that landlord

and getting a sublease in place.

416

:

So that didn't happen.

417

:

Then, uh, the Genesee Valley regional

market had spaces available and

418

:

we were going to partner with the

UR medicine, weight management

419

:

thing that the Campbell's ran.

420

:

Uh, but then that kind of fell apart.

421

:

And, you know, the six months,

you know, we're trying to get

422

:

this thing off the ground.

423

:

It's just nothing was

everything looked great.

424

:

And then it wasn't.

425

:

Ali: Yeah.

426

:

Ryan: And then, uh, which I mean, as

a story for so many entrepreneurs,

427

:

I mean, Tell myself every day, like

if it was easy, everybody do it,

428

:

Ali: right.

429

:

Well, yeah.

430

:

And I, I do a joke and I'm like, Oh

man, would we start businesses today?

431

:

If we knew all the things, all the

money and all the time and yeah.

432

:

Like, would we have done this?

433

:

Probably not.

434

:

There's, there's this beautiful glorified

naivete of young entrepreneurs that.

435

:

I think everyone needs to

have when they first start.

436

:

Ryan: Yeah.

437

:

Well, I mean, my, uh, my buddy,

Polly was always saying like, dude,

438

:

in this racket, like within a five

or 10 minutes span, the best thing

439

:

that's ever happened, you can happen.

440

:

And the worst thing that's just like, you

know, how are you keeping score at that?

441

:

Like it's how you, how you keep going.

442

:

But no, eventually for us, we,

um, we're like, listen, we, we

443

:

just got to get this thing going.

444

:

We had tried to, uh, You just kind of

start doing it, bootstrapping and getting

445

:

some stuff made for like friends and

family to try to get that moving again.

446

:

And, um.

447

:

We, we found this little kitchen

that was in the 1st floor of what

448

:

had been converted into a self

storage facility on on East Avenue.

449

:

Uh, 2 brothers had purchased the

building from Wesley gardens, the,

450

:

the retirement home and, um, and

turned it all into self storage.

451

:

But there was still the kitchen

in there with from, like, the

452

:

50s with, like, the pink tile.

453

:

And this tiny little walk in cooler

and, um, like, all right, well, this

454

:

is fine for now, you know, like, it was

just going to be me and the dishwasher

455

:

and hopefully somebody else soon.

456

:

And, um, that first, you know, got the

website up, we started selling stuff.

457

:

We had decent response the first

week, got all these orders.

458

:

And, um, you know, I thought we crossed

all our, uh, T's and dotted all the I's

459

:

and I went to the local, um, city office

because I thought I needed a permit, which

460

:

I in fact didn't, but they're looking

up the address and they go, yeah, so,

461

:

uh, you can't have a commercial kitchen

there that's zoned as residential.

462

:

I'm like,

463

:

what are you talking about?

464

:

There's been like five businesses

in a row operating in that place.

465

:

I was like.

466

:

They're like, well, I can't speak

to that, but if you open a business

467

:

there, we're immediately going

to shut you down and find you.

468

:

So don't ask

469

:

Ali: questions.

470

:

You don't want these.

471

:

Yeah.

472

:

Ryan: I was like, oh God.

473

:

So they're like, go, you know, go down

to city hall and talk to them and maybe

474

:

they'll be able to help sort it out.

475

:

And uh, I go down there, I

like never forget it too.

476

:

Cause John Swan of the Swan

family of restaurants, they're

477

:

getting ready to open Verne's.

478

:

And he was down there with like the

plans and all of that, like trying to

479

:

get, uh, some variants or something from

the city and we're both sitting there.

480

:

And he's like, yeah, well, you know,

if this doesn't work out, like, and

481

:

I know, uh, these 2 guys, they've

got a kitchen on East Avenue and I

482

:

was like, yeah, that's the question.

483

:

That's the kitchen in

question here, buddy.

484

:

Um, but I mean, to their

credit, the city did work with

485

:

us and we did get it rezoned.

486

:

That week, but we didn't get it rezoned

until like end of business on Friday.

487

:

Ali: Right.

488

:

Ryan: And everything at

Sweet Pea goes out on Sunday.

489

:

So couldn't hire anybody.

490

:

I couldn't purchase any food.

491

:

Cause I thought we were just going

to have to refund everybody and like,

492

:

this was going to be a disaster.

493

:

So that first weekend I

worked 72 hours in a row, like

494

:

Ali: did

495

:

Ryan: not sleep, did not stop, made

everything, delivered everything.

496

:

And it was just like a nightmare.

497

:

I remember in like hour 56, I was like

texting my then girlfriend, now wife.

498

:

And I was like, what did I do?

499

:

Like, because I, I left the restaurant

business like 12 years ago or so,

500

:

I'd run all the, the max restaurants

and, uh, got totally burned out.

501

:

And, um, I had a private chef

thing for like five years,

502

:

which was, which was great.

503

:

Like I wouldn't be married now,

like all that stuff that came of it.

504

:

But like, I just, um, You know, I

was working like three or four days a

505

:

week, you know, you do the big party

on the weekend, you make your nut for a

506

:

couple of weeks and it was much better.

507

:

And I was like, what did I do?

508

:

I mean, you didn't even

doubt a little bit.

509

:

I mean, that still happens sometimes.

510

:

Ali: Oh no, it happens to me.

511

:

Like always existential crisis.

512

:

First of all, existential

crisis every January.

513

:

Ryan: Yeah.

514

:

Ali: Um, because food service is

always really just down in January

515

:

and then like during the holidays

when it's the exact opposite,

516

:

Ryan: right?

517

:

Ali: So it's the existential dread

of like, Oh my God, what am I doing?

518

:

Ryan: Yeah, no, no, no, there's too much.

519

:

There's not enough.

520

:

That's yeah, it can be

feast or feast or famine.

521

:

But so 2023, you get over here in this

space, you've survived the pandemic.

522

:

You've survived eviction.

523

:

You've survived.

524

:

You know, the existential crisis

that you were having within yourself

525

:

after, um, you know, getting, getting

education, you're, uh, you're here now.

526

:

Yes.

527

:

What, what happens next?

528

:

Ali: Uh, that's a great question.

529

:

Um, yeah, so I have not.

530

:

Quite figured that out yet.

531

:

Ryan: Um, so

532

:

Ali: one of those things you fly in

by the seat of your pants so long.

533

:

But you

534

:

Ryan: were in a crisis, you

made like tough decisions

535

:

and you got yourself in here.

536

:

You knew you didn't want to quit because

it would have been a good time to quit.

537

:

Oh, it would

538

:

Ali: have been, oh yeah.

539

:

For like a solid, um, I

found out on a Thursday.

540

:

So from like Thursday.

541

:

afternoon to like Friday afternoon.

542

:

I was like, all right, this is it.

543

:

If you want out, this is the time.

544

:

And I was like, I don't want to out.

545

:

And like that, that, so that was kind

of just either folder, you know, all in.

546

:

Yeah.

547

:

Um, Yeah, so I think, um,

right now I'm, I'm considering,

548

:

um, still doing the cheese.

549

:

I mean, the cheese is something that,

um, that Western New York does not have.

550

:

And, um, I have a really, really great,

um, Uh, community of supporters, uh, from

551

:

the Rochester, Syracuse and Buffalo area.

552

:

Um, I really want to expand

into some other fermented foods.

553

:

Um, we don't have anything well, you know,

small world still around, but they're

554

:

not as prominent as they used to be.

555

:

Um, just other fermented foods.

556

:

Um, don't hold me to this, but I'm

thinking about bread, but don't hold me to

557

:

it because that's a whole other nonsense.

558

:

With equipment and yeah,

559

:

Ryan: we just started a sourdough

program at at sweet pea.

560

:

Ali: Yeah,

561

:

Ryan: and it It's like

golf, you know, like

562

:

Ali: I don't know anything about golf.

563

:

Yeah.

564

:

Well just

565

:

Ryan: that Like there's the old adage

of like it's a nice walk ruined.

566

:

Ali: Oh, yeah, you

567

:

Ryan: know like But it's very addictive

because the second you hit like a

568

:

perfect golf shot, like it feels so

good that it keeps you, keeps you going.

569

:

And like with, with sourdough, you

know, like I, I made it at home and

570

:

done some in restaurants over the years.

571

:

But I mean, particularly like for,

for plant based folks or somebody

572

:

who wants to be a whole food plant

based, it doesn't want oil or too much

573

:

salt or any of these kinds of things.

574

:

There's not a lot of it around.

575

:

Ali: Oh, I mean, yeah, 100%.

576

:

There's a lot of small sourdough

producers in Rochester, but

577

:

not a lot of larger ones.

578

:

Ryan: Right.

579

:

And you know, we also have like one

of the best bakers in like the country

580

:

and Keith Meyers and flower city.

581

:

So it's like, you know, do I

really need to be doing this?

582

:

But you know.

583

:

It's fun, but this past weekend,

we've done it for about eight

584

:

weeks and, you know, we just

have a convection oven and right.

585

:

Oh

586

:

Ali: yeah.

587

:

No, I just have like a, my little,

you can see through the door.

588

:

It's literally just like a single,

589

:

Ryan: pretty much the same

thing, double stack one.

590

:

And, uh,

591

:

Ali: my fan does not turn off.

592

:

That's my big, uh, it's my

big challenge at the moment.

593

:

Ryan: And, uh, yeah, so we just, you

know, just kept plugging away at it.

594

:

And then this past weekend.

595

:

No, I had like doctored it up

and like created the little

596

:

steam cave and everything.

597

:

And we finally got it to spring, right.

598

:

And like, finally get that nice, like

crust on the outside that bubbles and

599

:

there was a nice crumb and everything.

600

:

And I almost cried.

601

:

Ali: Yeah.

602

:

I believe it.

603

:

From my little

604

:

Ryan: eight loaves a week.

605

:

Yeah.

606

:

Ali: I believe it.

607

:

100%.

608

:

I, bread is like, and, and

this is why I didn't pursue.

609

:

Bread professionally to begin with

is because I kind of took the joy

610

:

out of it, but, um, I make sourdough

every, every weekend, pretty much.

611

:

Um, it's like a meditative

practice for me.

612

:

It's very grounding.

613

:

Um, I actually bought a grain

mill, uh, last year for myself.

614

:

Um, just like a small tabletop one.

615

:

Um, and I love it and I love messing

around with the different greens and the

616

:

different, you know, um, fermentation

times and, and, um, the flavors and.

617

:

Uh, huge fan of, I don't know if

you know who Vanessa Kimball is, Dr.

618

:

Vanessa Kimball.

619

:

Ryan: Uh, a little bit.

620

:

Yeah.

621

:

Yeah.

622

:

Tell me.

623

:

Ali: She's literally one of

my favorite sourdough people.

624

:

Um, Chad Robertson, definitely.

625

:

Uh,

626

:

Ryan: yeah, tartine.

627

:

Yeah.

628

:

Ali: Tartine bakery.

629

:

Um, he was my sourdough

crush for a long time.

630

:

Yeah.

631

:

Uh, Dr.

632

:

Vanessa Kimball is now, um, on that top

of that list, but, um, She has worked,

633

:

um, she has a PhD in the digestibility

of sourdough bread, which is really cool.

634

:

And, um, all of her cookbooks are laid

out so well, but her whole big push

635

:

is about diversity, diversity in bread

because, um, as an epidemiologist,

636

:

yes, they are finding that, um,

Diverse plant foods in your diet

637

:

is really what promotes longevity.

638

:

Um, and the, those plant foods include

spices and herbs and things like that,

639

:

which most people don't, don't think

of as plants, but like that they are.

640

:

Um, and so she has created in her

last couple of cookbooks, um, these

641

:

beautiful, uh, bakes and sourdough

breads, um, using her own, like.

642

:

Blends of greens, herbs, spices to

create new flavors, but also just

643

:

like increase the diversity of the

plants that, you know, you're eating.

644

:

Um, and it's really cool.

645

:

So the flower blend that I'm

using now has, I think, like, 10

646

:

different greens and like lentils

and stuff like that in and like.

647

:

Each variety of wheat counts as a separate

648

:

Ryan: plant

649

:

Ali: as well.

650

:

Um, it's actually like, when you think

of it, you think about like, Oh my

651

:

gosh, I have to eat so many plants,

but it's actually really not hard.

652

:

Once you understand that

spices and herbs count, that

653

:

different kinds of greens count.

654

:

Ryan: Yeah.

655

:

Ali: That different

species of potatoes count.

656

:

And, um, it's, it's also

just really delicious.

657

:

Ryan: Yeah.

658

:

So.

659

:

Oh yeah, for sure.

660

:

And you just feel like.

661

:

As we've been just trying this

stuff out from week to week.

662

:

I mean, pretty much just we're

the ones eating it at this point.

663

:

And not a lot of customers are

getting to see it unless we just

664

:

give it to them so they can.

665

:

Um, check it out, but yeah, like

it's more or less what I've eaten

666

:

for like breakfast and lunch for like

weeks and you just feel like great.

667

:

Ali: Oh yeah.

668

:

Super filling, super satiating,

um, you don't have to eat a

669

:

lot of it to feel really good.

670

:

Ryan: You don't feel like bogged down

like you would if you were eating

671

:

pizza or whatever, just regular stuff.

672

:

Ali: Yeah.

673

:

Yeah.

674

:

Yeah.

675

:

Um, yeah, no, I, I love sourdough.

676

:

I love bread.

677

:

Um,

678

:

Ryan: and it's a natural extension

of what you're doing with cheese.

679

:

I mean, cheese and bread,

680

:

Ali: it really is.

681

:

And like, I have condiments and stuff,

which I definitely want to expand on,

682

:

but, um, it's, I, I also have to, uh, kind

of pull back and be like, it's just you,

683

:

Ryan: you

684

:

Ali: know, um, it's just

me answering emails.

685

:

It's just me posting on social media.

686

:

I do have an accountant,

but that's pretty much it.

687

:

Ryan: Yeah.

688

:

Ali: Um, So I'm trying not to,

to put too much on my plate and

689

:

make things kind of make sense in

terms of, uh, uh, uh, scheduling.

690

:

I, um, I do make sourdough crackers.

691

:

Now those are really easy for me to do.

692

:

Um, that those only take

about a day, which is nice.

693

:

Um, and, uh, the customers love them.

694

:

My customers love them.

695

:

Um, it's definitely something that.

696

:

I think there's space for,

697

:

Ryan: yeah, so we're, by adding these

other products, um, are you thinking

698

:

like you ever want, like, uh, to expand

beyond this kitchen, like get into more

699

:

online sales, doing the next big thing.

700

:

Are you like,

701

:

Ali: yeah, I want to start shipping.

702

:

Um, the, the issue, it just comes

down to temperature control.

703

:

And, um, That's, that's my big

kind of hurdle at the moment.

704

:

Um, I am going to, I'm waiting

for the weather to warm up just a

705

:

little bit because, um, I can ship

anything now and it'll be like a

706

:

New York state and it'll be fine.

707

:

Um, cause it's, you know, February, I was

going to say January, no, it's February.

708

:

Um, but, uh, yeah, I'm waiting for the

weather to kind of get consistently

709

:

around 40 degrees so that I can, you

know, um, see how, how stuff goes.

710

:

Um, Yeah, shipping would be great.

711

:

I want to kind of expand

more into wholesale, um, co

712

:

ops along Western New York.

713

:

Um, I am hoping, um, I haven't applied

to any of these events yet, but I'm

714

:

hoping to get into some events to in the

Hudson Valley and Albany to try to make.

715

:

Those, um, wholesale

connections out there.

716

:

Um, yeah, I, uh, people ask me all the

time if I want this space to be retail.

717

:

Um, it's a little bit out of the way.

718

:

Mm-hmm . As you probably noticed when

you got here, . Um, I do, I, I mean

719

:

my, my space is, I try to make it very

cozy and very inviting, but, um, it is,

720

:

Ryan: I can attest to that.

721

:

Ali: Oh, thanks, . Um, but it's just

one of those things that, um, you know,

722

:

for me anyway, when I go somewhere,

I wanna be spending more than.

723

:

You know, 10, 15 minutes at a place if

I'm going out of my way, if it's not

724

:

near, you know, where I live, where I'm

getting my gas, where I'm going grocery

725

:

shopping, then like, I want to make sure

that, um, my time, if my time is valued

726

:

and I want to make sure my customers

times are valued, um, but I do, uh,

727

:

definitely planning a lot of events I've

been doing, um, fermentation classes here.

728

:

I have one tonight, um, fermented citrus.

729

:

Um, I have a vinegar

making class coming up.

730

:

And, uh, yeah, I had a dinner here last

July that went over really, really well.

731

:

Um, yeah, and just having, just inviting

more people into the space for events.

732

:

Um, Jamie joined us for the, the

first annual vegan holiday market.

733

:

Ryan: Yeah.

734

:

Our wonderful marketing director, Jamie

735

:

Ali: and December.

736

:

Um, and that was that I'm

planning on doing that again.

737

:

That was, that went really,

really well for everybody.

738

:

Um, so just inviting more people

in the space and have a good time.

739

:

Enjoy community.

740

:

Ryan: Yeah.

741

:

No, it's such an important part of it.

742

:

And, um, our space also doesn't lend

itself certainly not as well as this

743

:

place, uh, does for those sorts of things,

because we just have this, you know, kind

744

:

of 4, 000 square foot commercial kitchen.

745

:

It's just, it's the opposite of inviting,

um, but, uh, yeah, those events are, are,

746

:

I think, It kind of, it, the connection

within the community, because you know,

747

:

it's, it's a growing one, certainly the

vegan and plant based communities, but

748

:

having places where people can be like,

Oh, here's somebody cool and interesting,

749

:

doing something cool and interesting.

750

:

And now I want to tell

my friends about it.

751

:

So it's so important.

752

:

I mean, I actually, I, um, in a decidedly

not vegan thing, uh, I've been teaching a

753

:

cooking class at, at max for 13 years now.

754

:

Yeah.

755

:

Um, and, uh, it's more like wine

and food pairing the, and it

756

:

benefits a local charity interval.

757

:

But, but just last night we had

a winemaker come up, Rick Rainey

758

:

from Forge Cellars on Seneca Lake.

759

:

And, uh, Just to put his wines up against

some other ones from, uh, in the same,

760

:

same grapes, different producers and

just show them like what's happened in

761

:

the finger lakes and how this person

found this, you know, wonderful patch of

762

:

land and can do all this amazing stuff.

763

:

And I mean.

764

:

That's, that's fermentation and it's poor.

765

:

Ali: Oh yeah, no, the fermentation

festival in Naples is like at

766

:

the Cummings Nature Center.

767

:

It's literally the, I

plug this whenever I can.

768

:

Um, I was told it was August 9th.

769

:

They don't have it published at all

yet, but I have it on my calendar.

770

:

Um, it's literally one

of my favorite things.

771

:

And you get to meet niche

producers like that.

772

:

Just people who find these crazy

patches of land and doing awesome stuff.

773

:

Ryan: Yeah, no, it's,

it's kind of amazing.

774

:

And like, You know, you got everything

that's happening in the world and

775

:

everything that's happening in government

and all of this kind of stuff, you watch

776

:

all these kind of corporations getting

bigger and bigger and all this kind of

777

:

stuff and get like worried about the

future and all of that at the same time,

778

:

I think like, there's always going to be

like the opposite reaction to that, where

779

:

it's, you know, going back to the land

more, doing things naturally, like eating

780

:

these good foods and, The community that

surrounds it and it gives me like a lot

781

:

of hope when there's all this other stuff.

782

:

That's like, every time your phone

buzzes, you're like, oh, God,

783

:

Ali: yeah, um, oh, 100%.

784

:

Um, yeah, just meeting all of these really

cool people doing really cool things.

785

:

I, and, you know, for the life of me, I

cannot remember who this cidery and cider

786

:

and Perry maker is, um, but the first

fermentation festival, I was chatting

787

:

with him and, um, there was only probably

about 30 of us at the Cummings Nature

788

:

Center at the time, literal downpour,

it was pouring rain and, uh, we were

789

:

all huddled underneath the pavilion

and I was talking to the cider maker.

790

:

He said, Oh yeah, 10 years ago,

I planted heritage cider and.

791

:

Uh, pears and cider and peri pear,

uh, peri pears in an orchard to

792

:

purposely start this when I retired.

793

:

Like he had the forethought to plant

these heritage, not very well known

794

:

varieties, um, of, of apples and pears

that ferment beautifully to do this thing.

795

:

And, um, every year I find more and more

people like doing crazy things like that.

796

:

And it's awesome.

797

:

If I had land, I would

100 percent be doing that.

798

:

You guys should come visit

me so I can afford some land.

799

:

So you guys can all

800

:

Ryan: go.

801

:

So yeah.

802

:

How, uh, yeah.

803

:

How do people, how do people find you?

804

:

How do people get your,

your wonderful products and.

805

:

sorts of things.

806

:

Ali: Uh, so I pick up here at 95

montr 14 every monday from 4 30 the

807

:

pre orders are availa spirit and

abundance dot find my cheese at lori's

808

:

the freezer section, Red section.

809

:

Ryan: I was just there

Yeah, I've got sweet pea

810

:

Ali: Grass fed vegan butcher

on Monroe Avenue by request.

811

:

They keep it in the freezer.

812

:

So you just ask them.

813

:

Um, Let's see, uh, if you're

out by Webster way, Emma pasta

814

:

has my dairy free ricotta.

815

:

I am in a variety of

really awesome vegan pasta.

816

:

And I'm available on cheese plates

at crisp and at living roots.

817

:

But yeah, if you guys want the, the

full gambit of cheeses, that's websites,

818

:

my, the easiest way to, to get that.

819

:

And fermentation classes

are also on my website.

820

:

I have to put some more

up there, but stay tuned.

821

:

Hopefully have some

more events popping up.

822

:

Ryan: Yeah.

823

:

Amazing.

824

:

We should do one together.

825

:

Ali: We should, we should

absolutely do one together.

826

:

I'm

827

:

Ryan: in.

828

:

Ali: Yeah.

829

:

Ryan: We'll figure it out.

830

:

Thank you so much for doing this.

831

:

It was wonderful to meet you.

832

:

Yeah.

833

:

Ali: Great to meet you too.

834

:

Ryan: All right, folks, we'll stay tuned

for a big collaborative dinner between

835

:

Spirit and Abundance and Sweet Pea.

836

:

We will, uh, let you know when that

one's on the calendar, but, uh, big

837

:

thanks to Allie Lawrence for hosting

me in her space today and for being on

838

:

this week's edition of Shelling Peas.

839

:

I'm Chef Ryan Jennings, and we will

be back next week, every Sunday.

840

:

Can't stop, won't stop.

841

:

See you next time.

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About the Podcast

Shelling Peas
A plant-powered podcast with Chef Ryan Jennings of Sweet Pea Plant-Based Kitchen
Join Chef Ryan Jennings as he delves into the dynamic intersections of food, entrepreneurship, and the compelling stories behind his guests’ journeys. Each episode offers an inspiring blend of culinary insights, business wisdom, and personal narratives that highlight the passion and drive shaping the world of food and beyond.

About your host

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Ryan Jennings

Ryan Jennings is the CEO and Co-Founder of Sweet Pea Plant-Based Kitchen, a chef-prepared, plant-based meal delivery and co-packing company based in Rochester, NY.
Ryan is a graduate of the French Culinary Institute, where he honed his culinary expertise before returning to Rochester to lead several esteemed dining establishments, including Rio Bamba and Max Rochester. At Sweet Pea, he champions innovative and efficient food production, with a strong emphasis on sourcing locally within New York State. As the winner of the 2022 Grow-NY Competition, Ryan and his team are focused on regional expansion, working to make whole-food, plant-based lifestyles accessible to everyone.

Shelling Peas began with the simple idea that when a chef peers beyond the kitchen into the dining room, they are given the rare opportunity to touch the lives of a diverse cross-section of their community. In his weekly podcast, Ryan delves into his guests’ past, present, and future, exploring shared experiences and building new connections that deepen their relationships and introduce them to broader audiences.

In addition to Shelling Peas, Ryan hosts Plant Powered, a cooking show on the Eat This TV Network. Watch Season 1 here:
https://youtu.be/mFUFlkBC_Ic?si=k_26oURHPkMZgrv2